Saturday, December 3, 2011

Machines Making Machines Making Machines

Solar and wind capturing devices are not alternative energy sources. They are extensions of the fossil fuel supply. There is an illusion of looking at the trees and not the forest in the “Renewable” energy world. Not seeing the systems, machineries, fossil fuel uses and environmental degradation that create the devices to capture the sun, wind and biofuels allows myopia and false claims.

Energy Return on Energy Invested (ERoEI) is only a part of the the equation. There is a massive infrastructure of mining, processing, manufacturing, fabricating, installation, transportation and the associated environmental assaults. Each of these processes and machines may only add a miniscule amount of energy to the final component of solar or wind devices. There would be no devices with out this infrastructure.

How else would we do it? There is always the old way. Who of us will go down in the mine first?
WHO OF US WILL GO DOWN FIRST?




Let’s make an aluminum frame:



After getting the metal and barring accidents, it needs to be extruded. The extruding machine pushes heated ingots of aluminum through a die to get the shape of the frame. It then must be cut to transportable size and then heat treated.


As a teenager, 15, I worked in an aluminum extrusion plant in Florida. The extruded aluminum would be on a small gauge rail cart that we would push into a huge shed. The shed was heated to 375 F. When it was done we would push it out the other end of the shed to be loaded on trucks. Because it was Florida in the summer, our shirts were wet with sweat that dried immediately when we walked into the shed. By the end of the day my shirt was caked with salt.

roduced

LET’S MAKE SOME COPPER PLATE




How about some selective black chrome.

Used on solar hot air and hot water panels.

Lots of energy and chemicals here.





WE NEED SOME GLASS FOR OUR PANELS.

HOT AIR, HOT WATER AND SOLAR ELECTRIC.




Wind Generators




HOW ABOUT SOLAR ELECTRIC PANELS

MACHINES MAKING MACHINES MAKING MACHINES



ALMOST ELECTRICITY TO MAKE THE MACHINES THAT MAKE THE MACHINES




HOW ABOUT A LITTLE NUCLEAR ELECTRICITY

51 comments:

  1. MACHINES MAKING MACHINES MAKING MACHINES.

    We are goldfish swimming in a bowl, not seeing the water that we are immersed in because it is so ubiquitous. The massively surplus energy in our American society supplies the many complex layers. We don't see the layers and the energy and material requirements contributed at each level. People will only see and understand in retrospect, as the energy inputs start to disappear.

    Net energy finds human services as negligible calories and leaves them out. Net energy violates the energy hierarchy law by counting energies on different scales as doing equivalent work. EROI undercounts the embodied eMergy, thus is too optimistic.

    Development of renewables will require fossil fuels--lots of FF.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Excellent post as usual.

    Besides all the machines shown there are also ocean going machines that get the rare earth metals for windmills and electric cars. And the killing machines, guns, tanks etc. that insure we get those minerals cheap, finally at this juncture often using human machines to mine them. - Kathy http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/kenya/100118/congo-conflict-minerals-mining

    ReplyDelete
  3. How do we let down the good, well-meaning folk who want to believe in renewable energy? By and large they have nothing to profit from their advocacy. To we tell them to turn their optimism into despair?

    We have an inherent problem in that most people don't have a technical background. Good friends of mine just think a solar panel or two on their roof will make their lives sustainable.

    I try to explain the insurmountable problem of energy cannibalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_cannibalism) but they will then envision wind farms generating energy to make wind generators. The image is nice, but doesn't take into account the multiple layers of energy that go into production of almost anything.

    I'm not even sure that I should be disillusioning good people who, even naively, feel optimistic about a clean energy future.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why does this post remind me of Thus Spake Zarathrustra...

      Delete
    2. Charles - I think you do the people believing in "business as usual" via "renewable" energy devices a disservice by not telling them your truth. I am reading Willful Blindness by Hallernan, they may believe what you tell them or not. To use the needed resources and resulting environmental harm for a dead end needs to be spoken to. Unfortunately, none of us can really change except by forced necessity.
      http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2012/02/get-job.html

      Delete
  4. I just don't need any more pollution of any kind.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Excellent article, John. It shows very visually the full impact that we don't normally see. And civilisation really needs to show this impact clearer is some form of "full impact labelling system".

    And I agree with "unknown" that the impact is greater when you take into account the rare earths.

    But the point I wish to make is a subtle one....

    Given the impact is huge. But consider the alternative. That to not go down the "renewable road", would just tie humanity into the easy stuff like more coal, oil, gas, tar sands, shale gas, coal bed methane and all the other hi-carbon wacky stuff.

    That route takes the human race into dangerous climate change - possibly runaway climate change - and eventually into self-extinction. An eventuality that ought to be avoidable, and I guess we're all trying to avoid self annihilation, even if that means a few sister and brother species disappear in the meantime.

    It's worhwhile looking at the full life-cycle GHG impact of the renewables. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-cycle_greenhouse-gas_emissions_of_energy_sources

    This shows that (say) wind is still 100 times better than coal, and 40 times better than gas. (Admittedly this analysis doesn't take into account other impacts e.g. biodiversity, materials depletion.)

    So I'm thinking that the message we want to get out there is that the use of renewable energy (warts and all) is a BRIDGE to "the world of LESS" which is sustainable. i.e. "the creation of a symbiosis between the human species and the biosphere, irrespective of human desires for material consumption, by matching human needs to the ability of the natural environment to support those needs for many generations."

    That bridge should - I think - have a timescale of no more than 20 years hence.



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. At one time, I also renewables as THE answer. I was chairperson of one of the Minnesota solar energy organization, sat on the board of a federal solar organization, manufactured a solar hot air panel and lived off the grid. Slow, I began to see solar as a transitional possibility as you suggest. I had invested in an ethanol plant and even designed their logo then the ERoEI on ethanol came out. I then looked at it for all "renewables" as well as the necessary materials.
      We won't use them to transition, we don't seem to have the wisdom. It will take social "engineering" a la religion to control our behavior and it carries intrinsically the seeds of more devastation.
      See: http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2011/05/we-are-here.html
      We will simple have to ride this out, the sooner the better and a do realize the unbelievable pain that will ensue.

      Delete
  6. There is no painless solution for the problem of a looming energy deficit. There is a way too many of humans on this planet. But Nature will take care of it. It always did in the past. How? By shrinking the number of us by a massive die-off. I the end of this century there will be less than 2bn people on the planet. Wars, famines, etc... BTW. It already started. China vs USA, China vs India... India vs Pakistan...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I agree we are in deep doodoo. 2bn people would I believe be the top number. That is how many people were around about 1930. I think maybe 550 million might be a closer number, the number of around 1650 just before industrialization and fossil fuels in any amount.
      None of it will be pretty. Some of us have had a hell of a good ride.

      Delete
  7. Thank you for sharing valuable information. Nice post. I enjoyed reading this post. The whole blog is very nice found some good information here Thanks..Also visit my page Extrusion equipment for sutures FET supplies bespoke extrusion equipment for the manufacture of absorbable and resorbable yarns, fibres and polymers.

    ReplyDelete
  8. It is impossible to make any sense of this post. Sure human activity carry an enormous toll on the planet. But what is your point - we should stop making aluminum and copper altogether? Or is is just not solar panels and wind turbines we should make from it?

    We have put ourselves in a fossil hole - but the best use of fossil fuels and minerals must surely be to use them to switch to an alternative form of energy?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We would never agree because you I believe are probably both emotionally and fiscally invested in "renewables". The point is that "renewables" are not an answer because they are part of the fossil fuel supply system and can never stand alone. They can not reproduce themselves. Some say use them as a transition - to what?
      I was a alternative energy flag waver in the 70s, lived off the grid for 30 years - solar and wind, and realized it was a pipe dream.
      See (if you would):
      http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2011/01/energy-in-real-world.html
      http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2013/10/a-small-fan.html
      http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2011/05/new-middle-ages.html

      Good luck to you.

      Delete
    2. How long does it take for a solar panel to produce as much energy as was used in its production? I heard it was about 18 months. And they are good for 30-40 years. Displacing fossil fuels all that time? Not bad.

      Delete
    3. No human machines make energy; they only harvest what is already there in nature. “Alternative energy“ really just means human-made devices that harvest energy from sources other than fossil material or radio-active material.
      I think the point is there really is no “alternative form of energy,” apart from human, animal, and falling/flowing water, that doen’t directly or indirectly involve oil or coal to make/maintain the “devices” that harvest the energy. the more hi-tech the devices, the more they rely on fossil fuels to make them.

      Delete
    4. Hi John,

      "We would never agree because you I believe are probably both emotionally and fiscally invested in 'renewables'."

      John, you are responding to a point by making ad hominem remarks. You are speculating about his motives, which is just a basic logical error.

      "The point is that 'renewables' are not an answer because they are part of the fossil fuel supply system and can never stand alone. "

      You are just repeating the same basic error here, over and over again. Renewables are dependent upon the fossil fuel system RIGHT NOW. However, that doesn't imply that renewables could NEVER stand alone.

      Renewables are dependent upon fossil fuels because we always use the prior energy system to create the next one, rather than starting from scratch. However, it's entirely possible to manufacture renewables using the energy from other renewables. It's obvious how that would be accomplished. Manufacturing relies upon heat and electricity, and both of those obviously could be provided by renewables themselves. The transition to renewables is not imminent, but we have more than 200 years before fossil fuels are exhausted.

      The articles you posted just do not support the point you're making. It's not sufficient to show that renewables rely upon fossil fuels right now. You would need to show that it's IMPOSSIBLE to manufacture renewables using the energy from other renewables, something you've not done.

      It does not support your point just to say "things are complex". Complexity is independent of the source of energy. You would need to show that a similar level of complexity COULD NOT be achieved using renewables.

      -Tom S

      Delete
  9. Great post John. There are so many antecedents we can't possibly see them all. Just consider what is involved in making a:
    pencil
    http://energyskeptic.com/2012/even-a-pencil-will-be-hard-to-make-in-the-future/

    toaster
    http://energyskeptic.com/2012/we-wont-even-be-able-to-build-toasters/

    computer chip
    http://energyskeptic.com/2013/microchips-detailed-description/

    Motherboards in Computers – too complex to make in the future
    http://energyskeptic.com/2014/motherboards-in-computers-too-complex-to-be-made-eventually/

    or a can of cola
    http://energyskeptic.com/2014/making-a-can-of-cola/

    ReplyDelete
  10. jzf - It takes much longer. The research you probably saw only took in the ERoEi starting at the factory and not the whole system. See: http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2014/02/solar-investing.html
    http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2014/03/reality-again.html

    ReplyDelete
  11. Very, very enlightening, I knew there was something wrong with this deal. I feel stupid for not getting it sooner, though I figured something was off, but not to this extent, thanks much.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Goyal Energy Solution (GES) is a leading name in the coal trading, coal mines, steel grade coal in north east India.

    coal Trader in India | Coal suppliers in india

    ReplyDelete
  13. I never ever saw such type of blog in my life; it has incredible things to give knowledge to others. wasp

    ReplyDelete
  14. I just wanted to add a comment to mention thanks for your post. This post is really interesting and quite helpful for us. Keep sharing.
    Industrial machines manufactures

    ReplyDelete
  15. The quality of your articles and listing is really attractive.
    Best Solar Panel Manufacturers In India

    ReplyDelete
  16. Good articles, Have you heard of LFDS (Le_Meridian Funding Service, Email: lfdsloans@outlook.com --WhatsApp Contact:+1-9893943740--lfdsloans@lemeridianfds.com) is as USA/UK funding service they grant me loan of $95,000.00 to launch my business and I have been paying them annually for two years now and I still have 2 years left although I enjoy working with them because they are genuine Loan lender who can give you any kind of loan.

    ReplyDelete
  17. It is really a great and useful piece of information.
    4k Video Downloader


    ReplyDelete
  18. Thanks for shareing this kind of informative article. If you want to make passive income, You can check this out
    Earn $1000 In a Week

    ReplyDelete
  19. Discuss with Daddy in the event that certainly, there a fantastic unique blend your mom really loves and correct this due to her.mixed in key
    push video wallpaper
    3d lut creator
    IDM
    grids for Instagram
    4K YouTube To MP3
    Express VPN
    HD tune pro
    utorrent pro
    Adguard premium

    ReplyDelete
  20. Thanks for shareing this kind of informative article. Florida

    ReplyDelete
  21. your blog is totally worth it and awsome Thanks for sharing this informative blog with us this is such a nice thing if you are looking for a household plastic products making machine then contact - Threeplast- Machinery

    ReplyDelete
  22. Hello , thanks for sharing this blog this is very helpfull for me , if you want any help regarding injection molding machine then visit Haishi Machinery . more detail visit - http://www.haishi-machinery.com/

    ReplyDelete
  23. I like the valuable info you provide in your articles. I will bookmark your blog and check again here frequently. I am quite certain I will learn many new stuff right here! Good luck for the next!
    hvac repair lewisboro

    ReplyDelete
  24. You have a genuine capacity for composing one of a kind substance. I like how you think and the way you speak to your perspectives in this article. I concur with your mindset.
    Feel free to visit my website: salvage parts

    ReplyDelete
  25. Nice article, finally I found the best article story on google, thanks for sharing this type of blog. www.fewteck.com

    ReplyDelete
  26. This article is amazing and I found this page. Perfectly described by the author Buy PayPal account

    ReplyDelete
  27. Your content idea is so unique I have found it in the online sector. I love to read article but
    It is too difficult to find an enjoyable article.
    Your idea is too creative. I appreciate it.
    Please keep it And publish more and more.
    Read More send rakhi to canada

    ReplyDelete
  28. As a book can change a man's life like that An article can change a readers mind.
    Read also more 토토사이트
    But nowdays it's too difficult to find a best article in online. After many days i
    have found such an article which is i really like. Thank you so much for publishing
    this article. Please keep it up and publish more and more.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Sometimes I read articles in the online sector. it's too difficult to find a good article.
    your article is awesome. I have enjoyed it more. thank you.

    We are selling longboards. You can find the best longboards from us. Please check your website to purchase.

    ANZO-15 HONEYCOMB WHEELS SOLID TIRE OEM BRAND 8 PLY MAPLE LOAD

    ReplyDelete
  30. Nice blog, keep sharing such informative blogs. Monofilament yarns and fibers processing provider offers the best quality bespoke extrusion equipment for the manufacture of absorbable and resorbable yarns, fibres and polymers. Call today!
    Yarn Extrusion equipment

    ReplyDelete
  31. Thank you for this informative article have shared with us. Check this website for more info Composite Bonding Rugby

    ReplyDelete
  32. I guess I am the only one who came here to share my very own experience. Guess what!? I am using my laptop for almost the past 2 years, but I had no idea of solving some basic issues. I do not know how to Crack Softwares Free Download But thankfully, I recently visited a website named Crackedfine
    Push Video Wallpaper Crack
    Wallpapers HD 4k Backgrounds Crack

    ReplyDelete
  33. You made such an interesting piece to read, I really appreciate it. Thanks for sharing useful information with us. I am looking forward to more from you. If want to know about Plastic injection machine so you can visit them.

    ReplyDelete
  34. This is very educational content and written well for a change. It's nice to see that some people still understand how to write a quality pos

    tipsprediksi88
    tipsprediksi88
    tipsprediksi88
    tipsprediksi88
    tipsprediksi88
    tipsprediksi88
    tipsprediksi88
    tipsprediksi88

    bloggingduniaa

    ReplyDelete